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+--- Thema: Naoki-Projekt (/showthread.php?tid=522)
RE: Naoki-Projekt - Realshaggy - 21.11.2009
http://puz.hp.infoseek.co.jp/honkaku/form.html
Da muß man glaub ich einfach nur das Gebiet in kongruente Teilgebiete zerlegen, aberr ich bekomm es leider nicht hin, um zu schauen, ob das schon alle Regeln sind.
RE: Naoki-Projekt - Pyrrhon - 08.12.2009
Die Hougan-Regeln sind noch stark unvollständig. Kann sich jemand das mal ansehen?
Pyrrhon
RE: Naoki-Projekt - cuucw - 15.12.2009
I speak only English (so even this thread was partially
read with automatic translation by Google), but I thought I might
be able to contribute to this topic.
(also note, I am only online about once a week, so replies may
be slow, especially with holidays coming up)
I discovered the (honkaku) site several years ago. I rarely looked at the
online applets, but instead used the printable .pdf files.
Sometimes the rules in the .pdf files differ slightly from those of the applets
primarily due to the existence of color. At the time I did this, it looked
like an effort was being made to get most of the puzzles into .pdf form.
This was never quite completed, and after a point, new puzzles were
no longer put in .pdf form. (my file dates are from April 2005 through
February 2006)
I ran the descriptions through Google translation, and was able to come
up with interpretations of the rules that allowed me to get unique solutions
to all but about 4 of the puzzle sets that were in .pdf form at that time.
1 needed Japanese vocabulary. 1 needed ability to read Japanese
in the diagram. The other 2 I couldn't figure out the rules in a way that
gave unique solutions.
Since then only a few (maybe 20) have been added in .pdf form, so if
a puzzle exists in .pdf form, I can probably offer some assistance.
Looking at the files where I recorded the translations, this is for about
250 puzzle sets.
Let me know if I can help. (and if possible, send me email directly)
RE: Naoki-Projekt - cuucw - 16.12.2009
(08.12.2009, 16:13)Pyrrhon schrieb: Die Hougan-Regeln sind noch stark unvollständig. Kann sich jemand das mal ansehen?
Pyrrhon
Here is what I have recorded about the version in hougan.pdf from several years ago.
(raw translation to English by Google in April 2005)
hougan.pdf - Inclusion division - rule 1: In order the puzzle aspect, for the same sign into one block not to enter, it divides. 2: As for " the ⊃ " the sign which is included in the block the side which has closed, everything it is included displays the fact that in block the side which is opened. " = " Displays the fact that combination of the sign of block the both sides is equal. In addition, the place where the block which has these relationships contacts is indicated from first everything.
(based on the above, and including my solving notes)
1. Divide the puzzle into regions so that no letter appears more than once in a region.
2a. "⊃" [sideways "U"] indicates that the letters in one region are a subset of the letters in the other, with the open side being the containing set.
2b. "=" indicates that the sets of letters in the two regions are identical.
2c. Everywhere that these relationships exists has already been given.
Note (to 2a): "⊃" is a standard mathematical notation for a PROPER subset relationship. (meaning the sets are not equal)
Note (to 2a): the interpretation that the subset relationship indicates that the sets are not equal is probably needed for unique answers.
Note (to 2c): Apparantly this means that all boundary SEGMENTS where a relationship exists have been marked, not the regions. (if multiple segment contact is allowed between the indicated regions, then 2,3,4, and an unknown number of solutions exist to the 4 problems)
RE: Naoki-Projekt - Pyrrhon - 16.12.2009
Thank you for your help with Hougan. The gap in the rules of this puzzle format is closed now.
At all we have a list of puzzle formats that are not translated yet. It is in the 3rd message of this thread. I have added the PDF link yesterday, where I have found a pdf link.
Of course some translations in the first two messages may be incomplete. The translation come from different ressources and it is possible that some are wrong so far.
I hope we will find translations for the other puzzle rules. I like many puzzle formats of them. Puzzles from some of Naokis formats I have made over the time. And often it was very funny.
![[Bild: skater.gif]](http://www.sachsentext.de/smilies/skater.gif)
Pyrrhon
RE: Naoki-Projekt - Realshaggy - 22.12.2009
Ich habe mich gestern ein wenig mit "Relay" beschäftigt. Außer "Durch jedes Feld läuft eine Verbindung" und "An jeden Kreis sind zwei Symbole angeschlossen" gibt es da aber noch Zusatzregeln. Stage 1 habe ich gelöst, allerdings wird mir daraus und aus dem Beispiel immer noch nicht klarer, worum es geht. Eventuell dürfen dieselben Symbole nicht an denselben Kreis angeschlossen werden, allerdings ist dann Stage 1 immer noch nicht eindeutig, und schlimmer noch: Stage 2 hat dann gar keine Lösung. Es ist allerdings auch möglich, dass ich da irgendwo einen Fehler eingebaut habe.
RE: Naoki-Projekt - fuji - 12.01.2010
I understand English and Japanese, but not German, so I write in English.
Naoki found "Naoki-Project" and told me about it.
I am a puzzler in Tokyo and I know Naoki quite well.
I'm trying to understand this issue using Google automatic translation from German to English.
I think that Naoki and I can help you to understand Naoki-puzzles well.
RE: Naoki-Projekt - Realshaggy - 12.01.2010
Hi fuji,
every help is very welcome! This project is a try to understand Naokis puzzles better, and make them more popular in our puzzle community. Translating Japanese to other languages is hard, so automatic translators Japanese-> English on different webpages were used, but it's still difficult to understand the result in most cases.
The first two postings contain the puzzles where we (and other puzzle sites) found a description which is at least enough to make every stage of the puzzles on Naokis webpage uniquely solvable (and we think that it's the correct version for most of them). The third posting contains the puzzles where we don't have a complete description (we ignored some that seem too language dependent). Sometimes we know most of the rules and just have no unique solution, and sometimes we don't even have a clue what to do at all. It would be very nice if you could ask Naoki about the rules of the puzzles in the third posting (or some of them), so hopefully we can complete this collection over time.
RE: Naoki-Projekt - fuji - 12.01.2010
There are too many puzzles.
Some puzzles use Japanese characters (Kanji).
For example, "relay" use 4 Kanji.
Can you see Kanji characters like this?
![[Bild: relay-001.jpg]](http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af145/pasocomshoshinsha/Naoki-Project/relay-001.jpg)
4 kanji means "front", "back", "left" and "right".
RE: Naoki-Projekt - Realshaggy - 12.01.2010
Hi fuji,
thanks for your answer. I used a translator to find out the correct meaning of the Japanese characters, but I still don't get the rules of "Relay". Looking at the example, it seems like the directions of the arrows have nothing to do with the meaning of the Kanji.
(In the example (not Stage1), the meaning of the Kanji ordered in reading direction is: right, front, left, back.)